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Completion Time under 1 minute ... I don't think so
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Horseshy




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Posted at 2:49 AM on November 3, 2006
If this Craving is really supposed to be about completion competition then it should not be ranked by completion time and thus whoever can type in the numbers the second time around the fastest. Nobody completes a Sudoku under 1 minute. I think their first attempt is the one that should be ranked, not the one where they printed out the answers and then completed the puzzle a second time.

FReDD




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Posted at 2:29 AM on November 4, 2006
I'm not talking on behalf of Adam, but he told us some time ago in this forum that the site logs every move of every game played here, and thus, Adam can replay every game.
Looking at the order in which the squares are filled, he thus can see if someone just fills them at random (and then reads them in another window or on paper) or logically.

He says he already replayed games and discarded the ones that were clearly cheated. So, if you think fizzbut or some other really fast guys are cheaters, you're wrong. They're not. They're just fast. We're talking Flash or Superman-fast level here. But no cheating.

But I understand your point : what you mean is that if you replay a game so many times that you reach completion times under 1 minute, then it's not sudoku anymore, it's something else. Well, then it's something else.

If I take myself as an example : I try of course to be the fastest the first time I play a new puzzle, but after that I replay it until I find an optimal filling order, which I memorize, and then I try to fill it, always logically, the fastest I can. In your book, I think it's cheating, right ?

But then again, look at it this way : if only the first attempt was ranked, I could still do the same, stopping just before the last square is filled, refreshing the page and then starting completion again with a fresh timer, but with all the memories of the prior moves... Until I had a satisfying completion time, around a minute or so, and then I would fill the last square to commit my time.
I think it wouldn't change things much, really.

Sorry to be verbose, we French people like to talk.

fizzbut




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Posted at 11:02 AM on November 4, 2006
Horseshy, you are not alone. I too believe that the fastest time on the 1st try is the best indicator of logical skill. Unfortunately it presents it's own set of problems with programing it to exclude cheaters. You'd have to have a game you had no way of seeing beforehand, with no way of pausing or refreshing it as FReDD suggested.
In the meantime, this site provides a very unique format from anything I've found and seems to do a good job of filtering out cheating. It gives you the opportunity to find what might be called the "truest" solution. Under 1 minute times are more about knowing where the answers lie in the puzzle then knowing which #'s go in which box (and then getting your fingers and mouse to move fast enough sometimes). All in all, it's a good challenge.

Tati




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Posted at 7:42 AM on November 7, 2006
I completely agree with Horseshy. I think you should only be able to complete each sudoku once, and have that count for ranking; refreshing or restarting should not be allowed. If you do play it more than once, it should not count as anything. Recently, in order to keep up, I started copying down the grid on a piece of paper and completing it by hand, and then going back and filling in the chart.
I do not think there is such a thing as the "truest" solution, all solutions (if correct) are true.

Instead of programming the game to prevent cheating, we should all just play each sudoku once and then see who is more logically skilled. I know it would never work, but I think that playing each game more than once is cheating (if you memorize or write it down, it is still cheating).

FReDD




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Posted at 5:18 PM on November 7, 2006
Even if I see clearly your point, Tati & Horseshy, I have to disagree. What really bothers you, in fact ? To be 500th or 2000th ? But Tati, you write :

> Recently, in order to keep up, I started copying down the grid on
> a piece of paper and completing it by hand

So you seem to like a good challenge ? Then by all means, do it. Try to improve your ranking. Think of it as another game, not really sudoku, but sudoku with speed. If you don't like the way the rank is computed, then just do your daily sudoku without bothering about the ranking. You'll still have a good puzzle a day.

> we should all just play each sudoku once and then see who is
> more logically skilled.

You're surely right about that, but what if I get a phone call while playing ?
Kids playing around or asking me something ? A meteor ? Then all is lost, and better luck tomorrow... So there should be a pause, hiding the puzzle of course. But even with a hiding pause, you can cheat.

Personally, what bothers me much more is the fact that I can be just behind or sometimes before fizzbut in ranking, whereas he played 10 games less than me. And without any doubt, his completion times for the first play are way shorter than mines.

Maybe the solution that could satisfy everyone would be to compute the score by taking into account the total number of games played + the times a same puzzle has been played + a very strong coefficient for the first time of a puzzle.

FReDD




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Posted at 5:18 PM on November 7, 2006
Sorry, duplicate post.

fizzbut




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Posted at 2:19 PM on November 8, 2006
Tati - if you just copy the puzzle you'll be flagged for "cheating" unless you fill it in in a logical order. Again, your right about the first time being the more important time. I go to other sites for that but I have other problems with the way they do their sites for different reasons. So until I build my own perfect site I enjoy this one along with others. And if I ever build a site that's half as good as this one I would consider that a much greater accomplishment then my rankings here.
As for this site, I can get a half hour and more of enjoyment playing one game instead of just a few minutes your way.

fizzbut




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Posted at 2:34 PM on November 8, 2006
FReDD - sorry if I'm not staying ahead of you in the rankings. I'll try and not fall short again. Your times lately have all been under 1 1/2 miuntes, all you need to do is go back and play your slowest games again and I may just have to go back and play those games to stay ahead. Actually I've held off playing some games so as not to appear too far ahead. I hate game sites that you get on and your plugging away with a few hundred points and the leaders have a million. Then you don't feel like competing. I think scores should reset to 0 every so often, like every year, so new players feel like they can get in and compete.

FReDD




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Posted at 10:43 PM on November 11, 2006
> Actually I've held off playing some games so as not to
> appear too far ahead.

Wow, how "fairplay" of you ! (this word is actually the french word, I don't know how to put it in english -- except of course, by saying that you like to play fair). I didn't know you hadn't played all games on purpose.
I agree with you about game sites with leaders too far ahead of anyone.

And imho your last suggestion about the reset is pure genius. It would reconcile everybody.

Doug in Canada




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Posted at 12:21 PM on February 22, 2007
I agree that something must be special when a puzzle is completed in under one minute. I agree that some minds can process quickly and some (like me) just plug away at puzzles once and them move on. SOLUTION could you post a counter to the registry that shows how many times a person attempted a puzzle. I would be more impressed by high scores on first or second try and less impressed by someone who had low score after ten tries. Post the # of attempts and let us be the judge


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